| QUESTION: Real quickly, in addition to previous comments
(on Acts 1: 9-11 which I concur with), God whom is Spirit is not seen. The
Son of God is visible, and can be seen (1 John 1:1). Matthew 24:30 very specifically
says they shall see the Son of Man. Therefore, I'm still not buying into
your connection with metaphors either, because it isn't talking about seeing
"God" per se, but the Son of man denoting His humanity (Rom 1:3, Rom 9:4-5).
(And by the way, it says that all the tribes of the earth shall mourn and
see the Son of man, so it isn't enough, nor scriptural, if only those at
Jerusalem, or even all Judaea saw anything. Furthermore, I've already demonstrated
that Jesus doesn't "come" in wrath, so unless someone can provide scripture,
that notion is still in the realm of unverified opinion only.)
Also, I'm not dogmatic about the interpretation of the 4 kingdoms of Greece. But I do note, though, that you still have no witness of your interpretation from the N.T. of an event that was past by their time. Seems unlikely that something so momentous would be ignored, and yet distinctly written to be for the future. And I still see that it says- Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Which, in my humble, imperfect perspective, relates to Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your
own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness
of the Gentiles be come in. So that is future tense from the author of Roman's perspective. And I still see that according to Jesus and Paul, they seem to affirm there only being one abomination of desolation that is meant in the scriptures, which is this scene- 2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any
means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Could you please provide some scripture where any one in the N.T. interpreted this otherwise, as the way you interpreted it? Because everything I see puts the event in the future, and I have seen no confirmation from N.T. that any of the prophesies of the abomination of desolation had already come to pass by their time. Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to
the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars
to the ground, and stamped upon them. This verse, again in my humble, imperfect perspective, relates to- Rev 12:3 And there appeared… a great
red dragon, I interpret this scene as a time to come when Satan and his angels are cast to earth, and take up residence (demon possession) in human bodies, which the New Age movement is preparing people for with their "channeling" and all that. But I'll have to get to the scriptures on my interpretation about Rev. 12 at a future time, which I intended to get to in the Pre-Trib only thread, and still intend to post my thoughts on that, there first. (so please don't accuse me of circular reasoning again just because I'm trying to be brief, which is a great effort for me! My interpretations may not be absolutely right-on, but I do have my reasons from the scriptures for giving them, just maybe don't have the time to expound on them all at once.) I still see the statement "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34) as meaning the generation that sees Israel, as a tender branch putting forth its leaves, as the generation that Jesus was speaking of- meaning the generation who witnessed the 6-day war in late '60's. I don't see how Judaism of 70 AD could be considered tender, and just putting forth leaves. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the
fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know
that summer is nigh: Mat 24:15 & Mark 13:14 seem to support this position- ("let him that readeth understand,") as assigning this prophecy to posterity. Please note, brother Blume, that I don't deny your interpretation, as far as a pattern of what is come is concerned. But from all you've said, I still don't see that your interpretation fulfils them all enough to think these things have been completely fulfilled, and aren't rather a foreshadowing of what is to come. Prophesy often came that way. That it was played out beforehand in a similitude, but the real fulfillment was to come. Your accusation of "sensationalism" was not missed, but again
I disagree. A God who parts the Red Sea, who sends plagues like He did to
Egypt, who says He's coming back in clouds, who writes about all the plagues
to come in Revelation, I'd say is not beyond a few displays of the miraculous
to get people's attention, especially before He's about to send them to
an eternal, inescapable hell. In fact, it would seem totally out of character
for our God to just end it all, as you are implying will happen, without
first making Himself very plain as appears to I still don't agree at all that Jesus' next "coming" is the Rapture. The Rapture is when the 10x10 thousands of saints are taken up to be with Him. The rapture is not a coming, but a receiving. After which the 10x10 thousands are found in the midst of the throne, and are distinct from the billion Tribulation Martyrs and the 144k Israelites. The return of Jesus is with the Raptured saints (Rev 19:14) who had been with Him all throughout the Tribulation period. Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Even the quantity is right. |
You are very organized in your theory, which is commendable. (Many others simply throw out what they heard and don't know why.)
But as to the fullness of the gentiles being future, according to the writings of the New Testament, I agree. 70 AD had not then come yet.
But when I referred to Antiochus Epiphanes, I made mention of "abominations" being plural in Daniel 7 and I stick to that. There have undeniably been various abominations in the temple. Otherwise, sacrificing swine in there was alright. But "THE" abomination of desolation was linked to 70 AD, the then-future in regards to the dating of the New Testament scriptures' writing.
You bring up an excellent issue concerning the transgressors come to a full. Wow! And it reminds me of this indisputable connection.
These words precede Matthew 24 :
Matthew 23:29-36 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.Notice that a cup was being added to by the blood of all godly and innocent souls slain by persecution. It began with Abel. And it continued through history until Zecharias the son of Barachias. But Jesus accused His generation in Jerusalem as being guilty of filling that cup to the brim, and He obviously alluded to the persecution of Himself on the cross. He said they will FILL UP THE CUP and FINISH the actions that added to it in the past.
I propose to you all that that statement of Jesus vindicates the position that the events of 70 AD fulfilled the references to the fullness of the gentiles being fulfilled.
These all refer to 70 AD.
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.In 70 AD, remarkably proving this refers to 70 AD, the city was besieged for exactly 3.5 years.
Notice this occurs when the holy city is trodden under foot by the gentiles. And Jesus refers to the same event.
Luke 21:20 And when ye {the people to whom Jesus spoke}; shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.Does that mean the desolation is 2000 years later? Or does it mean when THEY (the people to whom Jesus is speaking) see Jerusalem encompassed, which occurred just before 70 AD, THEY would know the desolation Daniel spoke about was on its way to happening.
Luke 21:21-24 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.Jesus said that the treading down of Jerusalem, as Rev 11:2 pointed out, would occur and that time would mark the fulness of the gentiles coming in.
How many beasts did Daniel see? FOUR and no more. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and ROME. Rome was the last kingdom-beast and it was ROME who came down upon Jerusalem in 70 AD and besieged the city for 3.5 years, causing the believers who saw their armies to flee out of Judaea into the mountains. This could only literally be fulfilled in 70 AD and not our day. In our day, missiles and tanks would gun them down no matter where they went. Tracking devices would find them. I know that some might say that God could supernaturally hide them. But nothing is said about that.
Luke then mentions the following:
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;This is synoptic to the following:
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And all of this is indisputably synoptic to the sixth seal of Revelation 6. Matthew 24, as I noted before, is totally synoptic to Revelation 6. Jesus lists the same events in the same order as Revelation 6 lists the six seals.
And the following proves that CHRIST IS COMING IN WRATH IN MATTHEW 24.
Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?This is clearly parallel to Matthew 24's reference to the Son of Man coming, and we distinctly read here that the Lamb (Son of Man) comes in wrath.
And Jesus spoke other words concerning the elements in Rev's 6th seal, that we already showed refer to His coming in wrath.
Luke 23:27-30 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the pas which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.He said THOSE WOMEN AND THEIR CHILDREN would cry for the rocks and mountains to cover them. And, lo and behold, that is what Rev's 6th seal refers to when Jesus comes in WRATH.
Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondsman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that stitch on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?Now, j implied that the title Son of man is only referring to humanity. Well, that is not altogether true. The "Son of man" went in CLOUDS in Daniel 7, indicating deity and right to receive glory. And no human saw that, by the way.
Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.This son of man is Jesus Christ, who after His vicarious death, was united to His Church, and we therefore read that when He went to receive the kingdom, the people of God went to receive the kingdom.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.And the humanity of Jesus is not omnipresent, but yet we read:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.Son ship is BOTH humanity and deity. Not just humanity.
As to the Son of Man literally having to be seen to fulfill prophecy in the New Testament of His coming, let me refer to another verse nobody has yet commented upon in my other posts concerning His coming which was indisputably speaking about 70 AD.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.He said this, not to our generation, but to the very disciples before whom He stood and spoke. Those very same men did indeed flee from city to city, if you read the book of Acts. And that occurred before 70 AD. And those very men would not get the time to go over all the cities in Israel before the Son of man would come.
Did he visibly return in their day?
No.
Did Jesus say He would come in THEIR DAY?
Yes.
This only makes sense if we rightly divide the bible and realize that some comings are not referring to the rapture but rather to the wrath of 70 AD. But 70 AD only. His return to the world for His church will be seen visibly. But that is another issue altogether apart from Matthew 24.
And I propose for your thoughts that Mark 10 is synoptic to parts of Matthew 24, in verses 18-23!
As to the theory that prophecy has a double fulfillment, I deny that. It has been said many times that that is so. But where is an example? How do we know that prophecy has double fulfillment based upon past prophecies that were already doubly fulfilled? What proof is there of double fulfillment?
We can say that such a thing has not occurred yet because all double fulfillment prophecies have only been fulfilled once thus far in time. That is simply illogic.
Jesus repeated use of the "this generation" in chapters 23 and 24, and His references to the very people to whom He spoke and their prophesied experiences, that we take to refer to our future, make His words to speak of 70 AD.
PS -- the reference to diSpENSATIONALISM
was not to you, but to the entire theory of dispensationalism. Its flashly,
but wrong. Check the personal history of the man who invented it, C.I. Scofield.
The guy was least to be respected as a student of the bible.
By their fruits we shall know them.