Kingdom Eschatology DEBATES 6

Without going into the thoughts of how I likewise believe your thoughts are just as much opinion, let me simply state my points, to the point.

When something "runs and returns" as a flash of lightning, it is not speaking about the sight, but rather the speed. I think all would agree with that. He did not comment how the chariot SHONE like the appearance of lightning, but that it RAN AND RETURNED like the appearance lightning. The appearance of lightning is SUDDEN in this context.

Also, your reference to the third kingdom being divided four ways refers to the four generals, after Alexander the Great's death, who received the Kingdom divisions. Most agree this is the fulfillment of the prophecy here.

And concerning the notorious GAP between the 69th and 70th week, you reply that the burden of proof of no gap rests upon Kingdom Eschatology. I would say that is a stretch of logic. Daniel mentions no gap. If we were to read Daniel, outside the spectacles of diSpENSATIONALISM , having never been taught that smorgasbord of reasonings, we would never think to insert a gap. But the fact is that the cross fulfilled all of the purposes of the 70 weeks, seen in Daniel 9:24, and the grammar makes it impossible of the convenant-confirmer to be antichrist. (Are there any english scholars who can verify that?) You really should go to a grammatician/grammarian to ask what the opinion of a teacher in English grammar would say about the HE in Daniel 9:27. I INSIST that grammar destroys the entire thought of the HE in verse 27 being antichrist.

Also, please address my point about ALL the things in Matthew 24, from the very first verse, until verse 34, being fulfilled in THAT generation. Is it "all", Tom, or not? ALL includes the temple destruction, and not a future temple, but the one to which Jesus pointed and said not one stone would be left sitting upon another. pre-, mid- or post-tribbers have not said one word about that yet.

As to Matthew 24:30:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Psalm 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Literal clouds are not his chariot. Saying that one believes those two verses for what they say, does not necessarily mean it is speaking about literal clouds. I believe this next verse....

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

To say that I must believe that all the world will see literally Christ come in clouds since the verse says so, implies that Christ literally is a giant hen gathering us under monstrous sized wings. (And that was in the same conversation as the words of Matthew 24:30!).

But look at these verse read elsewhere in the Bible.

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Then we have...

1Kings 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne.

Psalm 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Jeremiah 10:13 When he uttereth his voice, [there is] a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.

People only saw the EFFECTS of His presence literally when we understand what the above verses speak about.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

I think you are failing to notice the idioms used elsewhere in the Bible. I am not pulling idioms out of my hat and saying any old thing that comes to my mind when I interpret these pictures in Matthew. I am not speaking of private interpretations. I am using the Bible to interpret itself. Looking at identical usage of idioms elsewhere in the same Bible, and applying them to the words of Christ.

I think if you would look at other uses of the idioms in the rest of the Bible, usually the Old Testament, when you read Matthew 24 ,for example, you would see that a lot of what you felt was literal is not literal at all but a grammatical tool of the biblical writings, of which Jesus is the actual author(!), used to convey
thoughts to the Jews. Since our culture is bereft of those types of idioms, we often make the mistake of taking the pictures literally, instead of looking at them metaphorically, based upon the Jewish use of idioms.

It is in this precise area of study that I found Kingdom Eschatology to excel beyond the other interpretations. The other interpretations and their interpreters failed to notice this integral part of scripture.

I think that yourself, and anybody else reading this, who is honest, would realize that, yes, there are such idioms used in the Bible, and that the words of Jesus included those idioms.

I propose we, myself included, need to study these idioms in the Bible more fully to better understand these thoughts conveyed by Jesus, especially regarding Prophecy, which I am now doing.

As I said, and I did mean it, I am not closed about this issue, and am always open for correction. But one thing that I can say is that I was down the road that you are now traveling, not knowing the metaphors Jesus used were actually metaphors used elsewhere in the same bible. I saw too many inconsistencies. But again, more than anything, too little understanding of biblical use of grammatical tools, such as idioms and metaphors.

What I say about Matthew 24:30 does not contradict the biblical use of metaphors in the rest of the Bible. In light of that usage, I think it is offkey to speak and tell people that a literal interpretation of Matthew 24 is more truthful and honest to the text, when the non-literal use of the VERY SAME PICTURES, making them METAPHORS, in the rest of the Bible is present.

I believe that Matthew 24:30 corresponds to these verses:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Could not Jesus be speaking about His coming to position of glory, that all the world would see, knowing that Jerusalem was destroyed just like He prophesied it would be? And it is not the literal Christ in literal clouds seen, any more than Israel literally saw God in a cloud-chariot, riding in vengeance against the enemies of His people. The same picture is used as a metaphor in the same Bible! Beyond coincidence for me.

Jesus, as Son of God, has the Kingdom since the ascension, and does with it as He sees pleased to do.

Could Jesus not be speaking about Daniel 7:13-14 in Matthew 24:30?

Also, think of this:

Look what Jesus said DIRECTLY to the High Priest, and nobody else.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I propose that Daniel 7's vision of the Son of man ascending to the Ancient of Days is the same picture John saw in Revelation 5 of the lamb coming to the one on the Throne and taking the book. I believe that this is a picture of Christ's ascension after His resurrection, upon presenting His blood for our redemption, like He went into the true holiest of holies with his own blood (Hebrews 9:12).

He redeemed us and also received the KINGDOM at the same time. The kingdom was transferred to the CHURCH after it was TAKEN from Israel.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It may look to you like I am not accepting the BIble for what it says. You say that all the world is literally all the world, and claim that I am not accepting what the Bible says to be true when I say it is speaking about the then-known world. But you cannot deny that the Bible does refer to the entire Earth as only the then-known world in other instances of scripture.

Acts 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

It is not disbelieving the Bible and going into error when I apply that same use of grammar and metaphor to Jesus words in Matthew 24.

You said, "4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."

"You see, the empire of Rome is actually the legal repository of the Grecian empire."

But you must be unaware that Greece was divided into four parts under the four generals of Alexander the Great, to say what you did.

So, my thoughts are that you err in not knowing history and not knowing the use of metaphors and idioms in the Biblical text.

If those uses of metaphors were not already in the Bible, then I would be greatly and plainly erring. But they are that. And that cannot be denied!

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I looked into those verses further and found this out.

The word "earth" is also translated as localized "land". It is used also at times for the planet, but the fact remains it could be used for the land, in a local fashion of thinking. And the thought of the term "tribes" connected with that, would render it "tribes of the land".

Could not that refer to Israel, itself?

Just a thought. It would fit with the idea that I am proposing. That would restrict the picture to Israel. We already saw how EARTH referred to the region around the events spoken about in other parts of the Bible. Genesis said the "face of the earth" had a famine, when we know it was not the literal entire planet. It was the then-known world.

The Greek word for "earth" in this verse in Matthew is "ge," and can also be translated as SOIL and GROUND. So, since the word can be translated both ways, earth or land/soil, it seems that the best translation of the word would be determined by the context around the verse. Again, I strongly feel the entire chpater is about 70 AD. That would allow one to translate the Greek word "ge" into "land" rather than "earth". Jesus was warning the disciples on the mount of Olives about the Jerusalem issue, and was not addressing the entire planet. It was a local thing. That is the reason He restricted the warning to flee to those in Judaea alone.

Jesus uses words here that parallel Zechariah's prophecy.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Reve 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice: Zechariah referred to the Lord coming. But not all comings refer to the rapture.

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon anass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zech 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

And that is written after the prophecy of 12:10 refers to those who pierced Him seeing Him. And before 12:10 we showed in 11:13 events also occurring during his earthly ministry. So, could 12:10 be referring to the very individuals, not the race, who pierced Jesus? Those very people who crucified Him would see Him coming in clouds.

The term "see" is also often used to denote understand. That is the reason we read of the eyes of our understanding, in Ephesians 1:18. So, could it be that Jesus is saying that the people who rejected Him, and heard His words of doom upon them, would UNDERSTAND years later, in 70 AD, that 70 AD's events were in fact the fulfillment of His prophecy of coming WRATH due to their rejection?

The following verse is not speaking about literal eyes.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.