ESCHATOLOGICAL HERMENEUTICS

PROPER HERMENEUTICS AND THE FOLLY OF THE "TWO CONVERSATION" ARGUMENT

Studying the Grammar and Contextual Flow of the Olivet Discourse
To Disprove the Doctrine of Dispensationalism

PART 8
Mike Blume
November 2010

After Matt 24 Luke 21 mentions the same series of events in the same order, we read remarks in two of them.

Matthew 24:7-9 KJV For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luke 21:10-12 KJV Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Between the reference to earthquakes and famines and persecution of believers in both accounts, there is a discrepancy of WHEN the events would occur in relation to each other.

Dispensationalists point out this discrepancy.

1) Matthew claimed the list of events before persecution was mentioned would occur before that persecution. After all, Jesus said, “All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then…” The term, “Then,” in Matt 24:9 means the next series of events listed occur after the first list of events occur.
2) But Luke, on the other hand, claimed that persecution would occur before the same events that were listed when he wrote, “But before all these…”.

In summary, Matthew and Luke both show these identical series of events:

REGIONAL EVENTS LISTED IN MATTHEW & LUKE:

1) Jesus is referred to the magnificence of the temple.
2) Jesus says not one stone would be left unturned.
3) Disciples ask Him questions about that.
4) Jesus warns of deceivers.
5) He warns of wars and rumours of wars

After this is the demarcation point dispensationalists make much ado about.

First of all, why would anyone think the exact same sequence of the above 5 events would occur twice, in two different time periods separated by thousands of years like Dispies claim? But is there an grounds they have in saying Matthew comments records Christ saying these events occur before the persecution mentioned next, while Luke says the persecution occurs before these events?

AT Robertson writes: “Luke 21:12 But before all these things (pro de toutōn pantōn). In Mar_13:8; Mat_24:8 these things are termed ‘the beginning of travail.’ That may be the idea here. Plummer insists that priority of time is the point, not magnitude.”

The 5 events listed by Jesus are generally events that deal with the entire region of land. Matthew recorded the next series of events and we see they refer to events regarding the Christians, themselves, rather than the region.

PERSONAL EVENTS LISTED IN MATTHEW 24:

1) Christians would be delivered up to be afflicted and some killed. Matt 24:9
2) Many would be offended. Matt 24:10
3) False prophets would arise deceiving many. Matt 24:11
4) Love of many shall wax cold. Matt 24:12

Luke 21 lists these events after the “regional” events:

PERSONAL EVENTS LISTED IN LUKE 21:

1) Christians would be persecuted and delivered to synagogues and prisons. Luke 21:12
2) They must believe God shall use them for a testimony. Luke 21:13-15
3) They would be betrayed by parents, brethren, family and friends, and some would die. Luke 21:16
4) They would be hated of all men for Jesus’ name. Luke 21:17.

After both these sets of events that deal solely with believers, themselves, both accounts then go on to speak about the sign to flee to the mountains.

So notice the pattern seen in Matthew and Luke. Both speak of regional events, and both speak of personal events. Then we read of a signal to those in Judaea to flee to the mountains. No one would ever think these two sets of events that match so well were indications of two different conversations altogether. They’re just the same account recorded by two writers using different terms like any other common account is written in two or more Gospels.

But dispensationalists claim Matthew said the personal events would occur after the regional events, and Luke claimed the personal events would occur before the regional events.

Hardly a commentator can be found to refer to this detail. I did, however, find John Gill’s remark about it specifically. He seemed to have solved the dilemma about the apparent disparity of the timing of the regional events and the Christian experiences foretold, by saying this:

JOHN GILL:

Luke 21:12 But before all these,.... Before all these things come to pass:

In other words, this is not actually a case where Matthew and Luke wrote conflicting things, indicating they must be of two different conversations, but that Luke meant the regional events would not totally come to pass before the personal events occurred. So this tells us the two accounts are indeed of one and the same conversation! “Before all these things,” actually means “before all these things come to pass.” This removes the apparent contradiction.

John Gill is the scholar, not me.

Matthew’s account can say the regional events would occur as “the beginning of sorrows,” and then use the term, “THEN” when he speaks of the timing of the personal events without contradicting Luke’s statement that the regional events would not come to pass before the personal events occur.

Dispensationalists might jump and holler, “Foul!” as though it is adding to the Word to say “come to pass” is the idea presented. However, Gill, whom some dispensationalists have referred to in order to validate a two conversation presentation, stated the idea must mean “Before all these things come to pass.” Why would he say this? Obviously because he felt the two conversations were actually one.

Regional events would occur first, and then, before they completely come to pass and are over, the personal events would start to occur. So the wars and ` of wars, and the false Christs and the other regional events would take so long to actually occur and end that the personal events would start to occur in the meantime.

This would be the perfect explanation for the statement Jesus repeats in the regional events and again in the personal events in Matthew.

AMONGST REGIONAL EVENTS:

Matthew 24:4-5 KJV And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

AMONGST PERSONAL EVENTS:

Matthew 24:11 KJV And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

I have no other comment made by scholars on the issue to verify the point either way.

Think about it. If did not mean for us to think the personal events would occur before the regional events all come to pass, why did Luke claim Jesus spoke of the regional events before the personal events, if the personal events would come to pass before the regional ones? Matthew 24 lists the regional events before the personal ones just like Luke did.

It seems awfully coincidental for there to have been two conversations to occur in two totally different time periods while in both cases Jesus speaks of the regional events before the personal events. If the Luke account meant that the personal events would occur before the regional events, then why did Jesus mention the regional events there first? Why would the inspiration of the Holy Ghost parallel the Matthew and Luke accounts with both relating the regional events before the personal events, if in one case the personal occurs before the regional?

The more you stop and think about it, the more ridiculous it sounds for one to take this apparent discrepancy and propose two different conversations. It makes far more sense that John Gill’s assertion is correct. Luke’s words of Jesus, saying, “But before all these,” must mean, “Before all these things come to pass” in order coincide with Matthew’s recorded words, “All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then…” That way we do not have to jump through the hoops of saying Jesus spoke of both regional and personal events in the same sequence in both Gospels, but in Luke the personal occurs first while in Matthew the regional occurs first.